• No Way to Run a Country: An Outsider’s Journey into the Heart of Our Broken Politics, Johnny Mercer, Macmillan, September 2026

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Intro: [00:00:00] You are listening to Parliament Matters, a Hansard Society production, supported by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. Learn more at hansardsociety.org.uk/pm.

Ruth Fox: Welcome to Parliament Matters, the podcast about the institution at the heart of our democracy, Parliament itself. I'm Ruth Fox.

Mark D'Arcy: And I'm Mark D'Arcy. And in today's special edition, we're talking to Johnny Mercer, former Conservative MP, former Veterans Minister, and the author of a new book, No Way to Run a Country, which describes his adventures in the Westminster jungle. Johnny, welcome to the pod.

Johnny Mercer: Thanks for having me.

Mark D'Arcy: The book is less of a political memoir and more of a primal scream, really. You display incredible frustration with the way Westminster works, with the attitudes of your parliamentary colleagues, with the attitudes of the press corps, with the attitudes of pretty much everybody in the SW1 system. So talk us through that, first of all. [00:01:00] Why did you find it such a difficult place to be, coming perhaps from your Army background?

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, I have to take the blame for that, right? I mean, clearly people come up here and they have a great time, and they love it, and they're super happy and, life's good.

So it's clearly my fault that I found it that way. But I think fundamentally, probably it boiled down to the fact that for me, it wasn't somewhere that I sort of aspired to be from a young boy. I wasn't licking envelopes at the Conservative Party at age four and a half. I saw it as a vehicle to get things done and to create change for a generation of veterans from the Afghan war that I felt needed that change.

And so for me, I was, using it to try and get things done rather than to kind of be somebody and, craft a career and all this stuff. So, you know, I made loads of mistakes and, you know, people will see that in the book, but hopefully it [00:02:00] gives, a good insight into how things are actually run from a kind of passive point of view without an agenda.

Mark D'Arcy: And your determination to get something done for veterans came out of your experiences serving in Afghanistan and from the experiences of people who'd served with you after Afghanistan, after they reentered civilian life, and some of those were pretty terrible.

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, I mean, that, that was certainly my, driving force for going into Parliament and for pretty much everything I did there in the end.

And yeah, look, in, in, in a lot of ways, I've got to be honest, I, made no apology for that, right? I think these people are, the best of us. I was profoundly angry about the way the country treated veterans, and I was determined to change it, and kind of everything flowed from that, you know, all the good stuff, as well as creating a Department for Veterans Affairs, and we now have a record spend on veteran and all the legislation and the programs I put in, plus all the bad stuff, all the relationships I torched and doors I burnt down and, you know, you just got to [00:03:00] take it all on the chin.

I, you know, I went there to do something. I got it done, but obviously it came at a cost and I learnt a lot and that's, you know... I wish someone had written a book like this before I went in there because then I probably would have been more effective.

Ruth Fox: When you were serving, and you've got this frustration about the way veterans are being treated and the sort of lack of veterans care, did you have much experience, direct experience of politicians, much engagement with Parliament at that stage, or did it, you know, you decide to stand for Parliament with none of that political experience and background?

Johnny Mercer: Yeah. So I mean, it's interesting, but no, the first time I met politicians was when I was in a particular unit in the military that engaged in sensitive work, and so you end up meeting people like David Cameron and William Hague and Gordon Brown, and that's when I first met politicians. I remember speaking to them And just thinking, you know, if I had your platform, I would never allow this situation around veterans to carry on, because I, found it so sort of grossly offensive.

Mark D'Arcy: What sort of things are we talking about [00:04:00] here?

Johnny Mercer: Well, look, I mean, in 2006, my first tour, one of the guys who came back, Ben McBean, he's a Black guy, given white prosthetics in Plymouth that he had to paint up until 2002. You know, mental health care was appalling. In 2012, more people killed themselves than were killed in the conflict, still a relatively high-intensity operation.

I'm afraid for all the good work out there, and there were people really holding a candle and doing amazing work, it just m- was nowhere near where it should be. And the, the problem I had was that there was that visceral difference between what politicians said about veterans care and how it felt to be a veteran, and that, you know, I take the criticism that really grips me, and I wasn't prepared to let it lie.

Mark D'Arcy: And there's a passage in the book about watching people laying wreaths at the Cenotaph and thinking-

Are they really sincere? Is this just performance?"

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, and, you know, to be honest, there's still far too much of that. I think remembrance is more than parades and all the rest of it, and I, just think that, Those who sacrifice for the [00:05:00] freedoms that we enjoy, particularly the families, those who lost loved ones, I think, we've got to look after them properly.

And when politicians sort of make a big play of thinking about them and then go and vote against their rights, yeah, I get a bit upset. You know, I make no apology for that.

Ruth Fox: We'll come back to your work on veterans issues when you become a minister. But let's start at the beginning of your Westminster life.

You arrive in, in, in Westminster. You've won an election that frankly most people in your party, the sort of senior people, didn't expect you to win. And in fact, some, of them told you so to your face. You make an extraordinary maiden speech, which perhaps is not the sort of... It's not Churchillian oratory, but it's deeply emotional, very, very affecting, and it kinda helps make your name.

Because you're, known as somebody who cares about an issue and somebody who's sort of on the watch from the get-go. Can you tell us about that experience of making that speech and what it meant to you?

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, I mean, it was a, brilliant lesson really because you're right. I mean, I d- I didn't [00:06:00] expect to be elected.

No one did. And I didn't know much about Parliament, really. I'd never, honestly never been here before, right? I didn't know anything about Westminster. I didn't know anybody there. Y- you get here, and over time, I think, as I did get quite frustrated with it, y- you know, you get a, your impression of it sort of dims somewhat.

But what that speech taught me was that for all of these things that go on, you know, for when people are trying to talk out a debate, or they're trying to just get a clip for social media, or the performative aspect of the House of Commons, actually it remains the most powerful place where you can make a speech and actually change things in this country, and I'll always be grateful for that opportunity.

Yeah, I was surprised at the impact of that speech, but you gotta understand, right, when I'm there giving a speech, I'm not giving it f- For my colleagues or for the whips or for the papers, right, I'm giving it for a specific set of people, which is how I thought about my speeches and why, wh- when I was doing that.

[00:07:00] Ob- obviously that ebbed and flowed, right? I mean, th- that one was very much to the cohort that I was there to represent. As time goes on, you're, you know, you're dealing with this constant friction about trying to support the government to get your stuff through, and then government does something crazy, and you're like, "Well, what do I do now?"

So it wasn't always like that, and I wish I had been more like that, if I'm honest, and really stuck to my guns on that one. But I was trying to play a game and make a system work that ultimately is very confusing and not particularly logical.

Mark D'Arcy: And what was the reaction from people in authority, people in the party hierarchy to what you had to say?

Because it wasn't just a sort of nine-hour wonder.

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, no. I mean, interestingly, the good people who are good at their jobs and, don't feel threatened and kind of insecure in what they do, like David Cameron, for example, got me in, was really pleased, really wanted to do stuff around veterans, and it's quite empowering in a way.

Others obviously think you're just trying to draw attention to yourself or trying to get up the greasy pole a bit quicker than them to be the minister for [00:08:00] fish or whatever it is they want to do. So you're sort of caught between the two. Look, I joined under Cameron, and I was pretty upset when he left.

for me, that was the Conservative Party. You know, it then went through a real convulsion and straightened out a little bit towards the end with Rishi. But the reaction of colleagues is always different, but I, must say, I think it says more about them than it does say, about yourself, as long as you retain that kind of true north, which I tried to do.

Ruth Fox: You talked about the power of the Commons Chamber, which I think is often underestimated- Yeah ... sometimes by MPs. But there's also select committees. They're- Yeah ... you know, an increasingly high-profile element of the House of Commons' work. One of the things that sort of results from your speech and the focus of your work is you fairly early on get a seat on the Defense Select Committee.

Tell us about that. What was your experience of that, and how effective do you think it was?

Johnny Mercer: Yeah. Look, I think select committees are a great way of holding people to account, because in the House you can ask a question, they can give you an answer, and then they move on, right? So it's a bit of a performance.

Whereas in select committee they can give you an answer, you can go, [00:09:00] "Hmm, that sounds rubbish," right? And then you can keep going and keep going, and that's where people slip up, right? And people who aren't very good get called out, and so I much preferred that. I think people take it too far, right, because they try and it becomes a performance, and that I think social media's changed a lot of that, and I've probably been guilty of that a couple of times.

You know, I've had someone in and I've, and I've heard a horrendous story and I've thought, "Right, I'm gonna absolutely smash you." So I can see how it happens. I think you've got to always guard yourself against that sort of thing and remember what you're there for. But I think they're far more effective at getting change done.

And in the end, I changed much more as a minister, right, because I was empowered to do it when I ended up in the cabinet with Sunak and Johnson. But at the beginning, yeah, I mean, I achieved change in Parliament basically by working with the select committees and the press, to be honest with you, shutting down the Iraq Historical Allegations team, all these other campaigns I ran.

I basically did that through select committees and newspapers, and it was a pretty unstoppable force by the end.

Mark D'Arcy: The big [00:10:00] change you wanted that would help get better veterans care was to have a specific department for veterans- Yeah ... and crucially for it not to be sited in the Ministry of Defence.

What's the logic behind that? I kind of thought- Yeah ... you don't want defense bureaucrats having to choose between, like, a new fighter and spending on veterans. Is, that the thought?

Johnny Mercer: well, look, I mean, our other Five Eye colleagues do it, right? In the US, they were one of the first pioneers of this.

The thing is with veterans is they're not serving personnel anymore, right, so they're not anything to do with the MOD. And frankly, if they've got an issue from their service, it's a kind of contrarian relationship with the MOD. So the last thing they want is getting a letter from some brigadier saying, "No, you don't have a case to answer.

Go away and get on with the rest of your life." You need someone who's gonna fairly arbitrate for these people, and they don't need a kind of special treatment. They just need the whole of government to work correctly for them, right, and for there to be pathways through it, as does everybody. But I would argue there's a special commitment to veterans and those who've lost servicemen and women in [00:11:00] combat.

So that's all I wanted, and, you know, once we did that- Outcomes changed significantly. You know, we started having the lowest veteran suicide rate of our Five Eyes peers, and we're contributing to the Australian Royal Commission on Veteran Suicide. We've got anywhere you go in the NHS now, you can touch veterans care pathways.

You know, we pretty much eradicated single-person rough sleeping a- across the country through our fortitude. And I was only able to do these things because I ended up with this department in cabinet. The MOD's got enough to do. It's not ... You know, I'm not anti-MOD. I think there's brilliant people in there.

I just think your fundamental construct around veterans care, you have to have a separate office from the MOD, and that sense of independence to make sure that veterans feel like someone's looking after them. And everyone agreed with me right up until the point when I left, and then they, changed it back.

Mark D'Arcy: You start off by putting in a paper to David Cameron about how this ought to work. Yeah. And, there's a rather telling description of what happens next. David Cameron calls you and says, "Great idea." And then [00:12:00] what?

Johnny Mercer: Well, nothing. I mean, you know, but that, that is, the nature of Parliament, right? And you've

I mean, look, to be fair, there's lots of other things on, right? And the government doesn't just deal with veterans. It, And this is the nature of government. You know, you can say, right this week we're gonna talk about tech, as Rishi Reg- regularly did, and then you get the biggest ever migrant crossing across the channel, and it's back to immigration, back to Brexit.

And so that's the nature of being in government and, politics. But yeah, of course, you know, I wish I didn't have to fight so hard for it, but in the end, you know, I kind of always knew I was gonna get there. I don't think I measured at the beginning quite how many noses I'd have to put out of joint to get there.

Ruth Fox: In terms of getting there, you clearly liked David Cameron. He seemed sympathetic to your agenda, but there wasn't much progress. Obviously, he goes, Brexit takes over- then we've got this succession of prime ministers, considerable political instability through Brexit and then COVID. Do you think in terms of delivering your strategic objectives in terms of veterans work, that actually the [00:13:00] political instability served you quite well?

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, I mean, it's a really good point. I'll be honest with you, when I saw that Brexit stuff going on and I was kind of fighting through What were smaller campaigns at the beginning. I mean, I took a leaf out of their book, right? Because I saw these ones and twos going down to Downing Street and having a meeting with Theresa May and then getting what they wanted in the Brexit legislation, and something kind of clicked in my mind and I thought, "That's what I'm gonna do about veterans."

So yeah, in a way it did, but also, yes, th- that instability brought in people like Johnson, who I was able to convince to sign up to a veterans pledge, and, that's the start of it really, and then people couldn't redress on that. so yeah, I think, it did help in the pursuit of better outcomes and life chances for veterans, yeah, but obviously I don't think it was particularly good for the country.

Mark D'Arcy: Which brings us rather neatly on to Boris Johnson, and,

Johnny Mercer: Favorite

Ruth Fox: subject.

Mark D'Arcy: he was someone who you signed up in effect to [00:14:00] support-

Johnny Mercer: Yeah ...

Mark D'Arcy: in return, let's not beat about the bush here, in return for doing things about the veterans pledge- the, the whole policy agenda about veterans care that you had put forward.

And I can remember meeting you on the day Boris Johnson became Prime Minister, recording an interview for Radio 4 on, I can't even remember what now. And there you were, sitting there in Portcullis House, waiting to see what would happen next about that, and whether... I think I said something about, "Are you gonna be a minister?"

You were clearly in Boris Johnson's kind of retinue, and, you didn't know. And it actually became quite a fraught thing even becoming a minister under Boris Johnson.

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, I mean, look, the whole thing around appointing ministers and so on is crazy, right? And, who ends up in what job. And the thing is, I mean, that was kind of my own fault again, right?

Because I didn't go around sort of asking for jobs with people. I went round trying to get them to sign up to this agenda on veterans, right? And when you do that, you annoy a lot of people, right? And so I didn't think that I was definitely gonna [00:15:00] get anything ever, even, you know, right through to Sunak.

Yeah, for me, it was-- I wanted that tool of getting them signed up to this Veterans Pledge, so that if they then did renege on it, which everyone was kind of in the habit of doing, I would then just go into kind of super campaign mode, like I did with Theresa May on Northern Ireland veterans, and frankly make their lives pretty difficult until they did what they said they were gonna do.

It's a lot easier to do that once they've signed up to the newspapers saying, "I will do all these things for veterans." It's a lot harder for them to then redress and say, "Oh, no, let's just forget about that." And they tried, but, you know, I wasn't gonna have any of it.

Mark D'Arcy: Well, from the get-go, I mean, Boris Johnson wanted to make you a minister in the Ministry of Defence for veterans- Yeah

and you wanted the Veterans Department to be outside the Ministry of Defence- Yeah ... as you were outlining earlier, and it took a bit of pushing to get that.

Johnny Mercer: Well, yeah, I mean, that, that was the whole idea that he had sort of signed up to and agreed with and really wanted to do it. And then, yeah, when it came to him becoming Prime Minister, things sort of changed a little bit.

But [00:16:00] I, think in fairness to Boris, I think, some of that was the sort of ground rush reality of becoming Prime Minister. But obviously, that collided with a, a pretty, stuck in his ways MP like me, and the two things came together, and in the end, we got to a sort of mishmash that was the beginning of the Office of Veterans Affairs.

So look, we made progress. Was it everything I wanted? No, of course not. But, you know, I think in politics, you gotta take the wins and just keep going with that gradual incremental progress.

Mark D'Arcy: Are we talking here about him not quite grasping what you wanted, he'd sort of signed on to something without properly reading it?

Or are we talking about the Ministry of Defence saying, "Hang on, we don't wanna let go of the veterans, and we want to keep this inside"?

Johnny Mercer: Oh, the Ministry of Defence have always been pretty anti taking veterans out because when I got there- The reception was very much like, y- wow, you know, it's great to have someone who's actually fought in Afghan and wants to tidy up these veterans' issues.

And then when it dawned on them that that meant that perhaps they hadn't been doing a particularly good job before, they kind of turned turkey pretty quickly, and, you know, a lot of my [00:17:00] meetings started with a good 10 or 15 minutes about how we now get the same time as prisoners on the phone every week, whereas before we didn't, we got less.

And I just think there was a pretty low bar that I tried to raise, and once people realized that meant that they, perhaps could have done better, it didn't go down particularly well. Were the MOD involved in that? I don't know. I mean, it's the million-dollar question with Boris, you know, what, what goes on between the ears, right?

And, I don't know, many people who know the answer to that. I still like Boris and, I maintain that, you know, I don't... It's hard to think that he would just sort of lie to your face, but unfortunately, he did sometimes have a habit of saying things that, that didn't particularly bear out, and obviously that was the undoing of him in the end.

Ruth Fox: Was it a sort of, from your perspective, a sort of brazen as, "I'm gonna hold my nose here," 'cause what flows through the book is your sense of that the politicians at Westminster, they're not honest. There isn't the high standards. there's some lacking in integrity, and you compare them to people in your [00:18:00] experience in military life, and they don't measure up on those, those questions of honesty and, standards.

So the relationship with Boris Johnson from somebody reading the book is quite difficult to compute. But, so is it as just as, as simple as saying, "I thought there was a better chance of him delivering what I wanted, so I held my nose and supported him"?

Johnny Mercer: 100%. Yeah. You know, you have to make decision, I think, pretty early on when these...

I mean, these election, elected leaders of parties contests are just mad, right? I mean, some of the people who put themselves forward, I think it's like watching a kind of mental breakdown take place in public. I think in one of the elections you had 15 candidates, right? Some of whom I, hadn't actually heard of or didn't realize they were in the party.

you cannot run a country. It's not serious. So you have to then think, right, what is likely to happen and how do I get results from my cohort who I'm here for? I'm not, ultimately, I'm not here for myself, right? So if I was here for myself, I start sucking up and I become best friends on a fake level with whoever it is.

But for me, it was [00:19:00] always, "I'm here to get this done. How, what's the best way of doing that?" And yeah, and on that occasion it was get alongside Boris, and I think shaping that Boris Johnson premiership was something I wanted to do. I never had that opportunity. Fine, he became Prime Minister and, you know, we all know what happened and, you know, I think it's fair to say he was, he disappointed a lot of us.

He had this majority and an amazing opportunity to shape the country. And yes, he had COVID and, Ukraine, but I don't think that excuses the sort of breakdown in values that we saw in Number 10.

Mark D'Arcy: And those issues were also apparent when you went out of office, when you were kind of extruded. Were you fired or were you sacked?

You were basically very unhappy with government policy about the chasing of Northern Ireland veterans, and you got to the point where you were saying you couldn't agree with government policy while a minister. And what happened next?

Johnny Mercer: Trouble is, we'd made these very serious and solemn commitments over a number of years to people who were [00:20:00] extremely vulnerable, who were in their 80s and 90s, and who were starting their court cases, I think it was that, that June in, Belfast, and for me, that was always the red line.

Boris knew that was the red line. Everybody knew that was the red line. And, you know, again, it comes back to getting things done right. How are you gonna get things done? That's what you're there for. You're not there to build your own career. You're there to get things done for people who really need you.

You know, these veterans They're on their own getting these letters from the MOD or whoever it may be. They don't have someone standing up for them. They don't want to talk to their wife about it. They'll have medical conditions. They won't remember what's going on. They're getting chased and harassed and bullied.

They needed someone to stand up for them, and I did, and we changed the law, and we protected them. Obviously, this government's come in and chosen to do something different. There's nothing you can do about that. But when it was my time in the arena, I did, and, yeah, I'm proud of that, whatever the scars that came with it.

Mark D'Arcy: But what happened to you personally was an interview with the chief whip in which you were [00:21:00] told that you were to leave the government and... T-talk us through that incident because it's just an absolutely extraordinary story.

Johnny Mercer: Well, I mean, it's just, you know, the whole sort of HR management of ministers and MPs is just obscene, right?

Firstly, it's quite hard if you've had a previous career in, you know, in a re-relatively serious industry like I had. You know, to come in and sit down and get life advice off people who are consistently being done for sexual misdemeanors or other inappropriate behavior and sit down and get life advice off these people, I mean, it's just crazy, right?

And then when it comes to actually managing an exit like this where you actually need some sort of professionalism, obviously you're just not gonna get it. So on this occasion when I was called into the chief whip's office and, he said, "You need to resign," and I wasn't going to resign because I knew I'd be letting down a lot of families and so on.

But I said, "You know, you, are free to sack me because you're the chief whip." And he just sort of couldn't do it really and he's sort of looking at the floor laughing. And then on the way out the [00:22:00] door, literally texted me and said I'd been sacked. And, yeah, the TV crews were there for me, and I, thought that was a bit of a poor thing to do.

But it's politics, right? Show business for ugly people, and you... I was the ugly person that day, and you've got to take it on the chin. But yeah, it's a shabby way to, run the country, right?

Mark D'Arcy: And then the phone rings.

Johnny Mercer: Oh, yeah, and then the pri-prime minister's on the phone claiming he knew nothing about it.

I mean, you know, what do you do with this, right? I mean, y-y-y-even now, like, I still don't know what to do about that. And I don't know what happened, and people have told me different versions. I mean, I'm sort of past caring really.

Mark D'Arcy: Did you believe him that he knew nothing about it? Did you think he should have known about it?

Johnny Mercer: Well, clearly he should have known something about it. it's the million dollar question. Whenever Boris says something to you, do you believe it? I mean, you don't know.

Ruth Fox: Talking about prime ministers, one of the most, interesting and powerful bits in the book that I enjoyed, with my parliamentary nerd's hat on, was your account of Prime [00:23:00] Minister's Questions.

Newish MP, you get called to ask a question for the first time at PMQs, and then things go on behind the scenes that if you are watching PMQs on the TV, on the news, and you're not familiar with the way Westminster works, might surprise people. So what happened?

Johnny Mercer: Look, the whole thing, first it's, important to remember the whole thing's performance, right?

I mean, the whole premise of it, you get drawn out of a hat for a question, right? So it's like a tombola. So that's the way the agenda is, set for the country, is like who comes out the hat for a question on that day. You've then got a decision to make, what are you gonna use your question for? Am I gonna use it to make myself look good?

Am I gonna use it to make the Prime Minister feel good? Or am I going to use it to help people who've wanted answers out of this guy or, lady for a long time? And yeah, I mean, you'll always get a phone call pretty quickly from Number 10 saying, "Would you like to suggest a question?" And that's why you see these ridiculous questions, right?

You see people stand up and just give the most [00:24:00] toady question in the world, and, everyone is kind of sweating wa- watching this. But, yeah, for me, no, that wasn't the case, and I obviously went in pretty hard most times, just because I, you know, I thought it was a real privilege to have that opportunity.

But also, I thought the whole point was to ask questions for people who sat at home who needed answers, and that, that's not the point. You know, the point is to make the PM look good or make the party look good or get some cheap jibe in at the opposition. And, for me, I just, yeah, I struggled with that.

But I can't have been the first guy. I was just very bad at playing the game, right? I think people know in their hearts, I mean, when they stand up and they ask a question, you know, "How great does the Prime Minister feel about X, Y, and Z that he did recently?" They must know in their hearts that voters are just sort of sucking their teeth a bit and thinking this is all a bit ridiculous.

But they still do it.

Ruth Fox: I mean, this sort of idea of, Parliament performance in the House of Commons as theater, the idea that [00:25:00] MPs are almost like sock puppets.

You're a soldier.

Johnny Mercer: Yeah.

Ruth Fox: And external perception of soldiers is that you follow orders. So in a sense, being an MP is sort of mo- almost a perfect candidate for whipping.

But yet you really struggled with that. How does that fit with the way that you were trained as a soldier- Well- ... and how that fits with the parliamentary culture?

Johnny Mercer: Yeah. Well, I think, look, firstly on soldiers, I mean, they're not, the vast majority are not sort of mindless robots, right? So, and leadership is far more than telling people what to do, particularly in my experience of leading teams in Afghanistan.

I mean, personally, I've mentioned it before, you know, I really struggled with the kind of credibility issue where you would come in and a guy who, basically, like, couldn't shave himself properly or dress himself would then give you career advice as to what's good for you in Parliament and what politically might work when you've just gone and banged on 35,000 doors and they've never been canvassing in their life.

You know, there's a big credibility gap there. And we're all products of our own [00:26:00] experiences, right? So my formative experience, probably small team fighting in Afghanistan for a long time, then doing those 35,000 doors, and those two things shaped me, right? So it shaped me in terms of what I was in politics for And it shaped me how I think politics should be done and, what I think of it as a concept, right?

So I mean, I never voted for as an MP. For me, politics was a means of, getting things done and helping people who really need it. For a lot of people, you know, government is quite small. You pay your taxes and hope you never see anyone from the government, right? But for people in Plymouth who really need social housing, a strong NHS, good children's services, it was a big deal.

And I, yeah, I had a moral problem with them being not very good at their job because of the impact it had on, some of the poorest folk in Plymouth. And so that, th- those were always my kind of guiding principles. And I mean, I went through stages where I tried to play the game, right? And I tried to be a better MP and a better colleague, but it just...

I felt like I was becoming, like, everything I went into Parliament to not be, right? So, it didn't [00:27:00] last very long, but yeah, I tried. I tried. I think, you know, I'd have been mad not to because I wanted to do well. I didn't wanna be a disruptor. I wanted to go with the flow. But in the end, I got things done by causing chaos, and, obviously I'm not sorry about that.

Mark D'Arcy: I'm interested in what you felt the big lessons you learned were for operating effectively in that Westminster Whitehall culture. What were the best tricks of the trade that you picked up?

Johnny Mercer: You gotta get good people around you, right? There are good people in the civil service. There's good young people who want to fight the system with you and make it work for people who really need it to work.

You've got to really understand why people do things. So why do... You know, a lot of these people are not bad people. They just have a different set of motivating factors to you. They might actually quite like being in the newspaper and having a picture of themselves outside. even though you think it's a bit ridiculous, they might quite like that.

And you've gotta find a way of using those motivational tools, if you like, to get the stuff done that you wanna get done [00:28:00] for people who need it. look, I, of course regret the... I mean, I, had a lot of fights, right? And I wish it wasn't that way, but at the same time, I fundamentally changed what it means to be a veteran in this country, right?

And I brought in legislation to change their lives. And so I'm kind of conflicted really, because did, did I like being unpopular? No, of course not. Did I like reading that stuff about me in the papers? No. But, you know, from colleagues who pretend to be your friend on a Thursday and then on a Saturday say something horrendous about you, no, of course I didn't like that.

I found it very difficult, because it was so very different to my previous experiences. But ultimately, I was naive. But I think in the end, you know, I achieved what I set out to achieve and you can't sort of rub that away.

Ruth Fox: In terms of the House of Commons, what do you think's the prescription?

Because y- you're not the first person in recent times to articulate that a problem at Westminster is the quality of people and the [00:29:00] culture.

Somebody like me at the Hansard Society, I can sort of draft perfect procedural rules to make the way Westminster works and the legislative process better. But ultimately, if the people- They're not going to sh- ... and the culture are not right- Yeah ... then it's not gonna, it's not gonna work. So how do we break this cycle?

Johnny Mercer: Yeah. I mean, a big part of it is leadership, of the parties, right? So, you know, if you have a fairly loose grip on leadership, like Theresa May did, or Liz Truss, and in the end, Boris Johnson, you end up attracting the wrong sort of people, right?

I think there's a place for everyone. I still think that. And I don't think, one group is better or worse than the others. But you have some people, they generally fall into two groups, right? Those who want to be someone and those who want to do something. And the crucial thing is you have to have a balance, right?

Because people like me don't really want to be anyone, right? So I don't want to go to all the cocktail parties with the ambassadors. I'd rather go home, watch football and get a takeaway, right? So I'd be rubbish at that. But what I do want to do is I want to get stuff done. [00:30:00] So you need to have a balance and everyone needs to understand each other and where they fit into that.

And that, a lot of that comes down to leadership. The problem that happened was that after Brexit, when Cameron left The party just got so imbalanced. There was an overwhelming majority of people who wanted to be somebody rather than get something done, and in the end, that's what sunk us. We were never going to be able to right that ship.

So I think you've got to think about the environment and who's actually attracted to work there at the moment. You know, you see the hypocrisy going on. This new government's, you know, appointed people who've previously had to leave previous governments for bad behavior, and then suddenly they're straight back in.

You do that sort of thing in the private sector, and it's a completely different environment, and they can't understand that. Why does politics work in this way, where basically if you're a certain person, you get a free pass for everything? And it's not right. So you need to change the culture, but you need to change the people, right?

Who actually does well in politics? Is it someone who comes in and says different things to different people and plays everyone [00:31:00] off against each other, briefs a good thing for themselves? I mean, Liz Truss became Prime Minister, right? I don't know if you've met Liz Truss, but the idea of Liz Truss being Prime Minister is absurd, right?

But she ran this campaign through, like, Instagram, and the papers, and the spouses this, and suddenly this woman's Prime Minister, and the whole country implodes. So you got to get better people who actually believe in something. That'd be helpful, I think.

Mark D'Arcy: Is part of the problem here that increasingly in most of the parties, the choice of people who become MPs has been centralized?

There's less and less discretion for local parties to make selections, more and more instances of people being parachuted in at the last minute to an agreeable safe seat with a 30,000 majority.

Johnny Mercer: Yeah, I think that's always been a problem. I think, again, it's a balance, and I think Cameron was on the road to addressing this, because at the same time, you can have parts of the country that are totally unrepresentative of modern Britain, right?

And you've got to be careful about getting people in who are purely selected on their extremely sort of right-wing or [00:32:00] virtuous views on gay marriage or something when, the country's moved on. So you, do have to have a professional operation. It's all a balance. I always come back to this. It's a balance, right?

I would maintain there is room for people like me in politics, but, you know, that's, not a popular opinion. I think there's a balance on these things. And the other, challenge is obviously the professional politician, right? Who comes through the parties, who never had a job, well, anywhere, frankly, outside of politics or a polling firm or a PA company or...

And they're telling single mums how to budget for the week. I mean, I got three kids. I, couldn't be a single mum, and yet these, these people from extremely gilded backgrounds are telling people how to run their lives. I just think it doesn't work. So you got to get better people, a better mix of people, and turn it into a team game again, and things might be different.

Mark D'Arcy: And I suppose the other thing is that the electorate mostly votes on party rather than the person, so should voters be looking a bit more closely at the character of the people put before them in an election?

Johnny Mercer: Well, of course, but I mean, the one [00:33:00] thing you can't do is blame voters for who they vote for, right?

Because they get given what they get given, and they have to make a decision on the day, and so if they don't go and vote for you, it's our fault. I mean- The last election, it was pretty clear to me you had a, a prime minister in, in Rishi Sunak, an extremely capable and gifted individual, good bloke who could lead the nation, versus Mr.

Starmer, who's exited pretty quickly. I mean, that's a pretty obvious choice to most people, but, he didn't get a look in. He led the Tories to their worst defeat ever, and I think that was a case of just People just wanted anything but the Conservatives, and they thought... They were right in that they thought we couldn't get any worse.

They had, had enough of us by the end, but they were wrong thinking that it wasn't gonna get worse still. And I think we just have to be very careful around these things 'cause it matters.

Ruth Fox: Where do you think we are now with Veterans Affairs and veterans care? And, obviously the Northern Ireland Legacies Bill has been a running issue for the current government carried over from the last session and still not [00:34:00] resolved what it is that they're going to do.

So where do you think we are two-plus years into a Labour government?

Johnny Mercer: Unfortunately, things have clearly redressed, right? And, you know, I remember Starmer looking into my eyes at Remembrance and saying that he was gonna keep the Office for Veterans' Affairs where it was and keep it separate to the MOD and a minister in his cabinet.

He said that to the country. And the moment he won the election, he changed his mind, and he sort of set the Labour Party on this course to redress veterans' rights, to change the Legacy Act, which a- again, was just misguided. Obviously, the Legacy Act is not, is nowhere near to perfect. It's the best of a very bad set of options, but it's probably as good as you're gonna get in terms of getting answers for families before a lot of these protagonists die and provide a degree of peace and protection to those who upheld the law in Northern Ireland.

It was deeply imperfect. But when you're operating in a place where kind of politics is all about soundbites and [00:35:00] just a, a lack of honesty, I think, you know, we're still gonna protect veterans even though we're gonna take all the veterans' protections away. I mean, the, I think there's a element of treating the country like they're stupid.

Mark D'Arcy: The Northern Ireland Troubles Bill, the Legacy Bill, is essentially about looking at events that may have happened in like the early 1970s where someone was killed and people are still campaigning decades later to find out exactly what happened, and this is what's brought often quite elderly ex-soldiers into courts in Belfast.

Is this a necessary part of the healing process for Northern Ireland? Because there are a lot of people who argue that until these questions are answered, those wounds remain open.

Johnny Mercer: Look, there's some people that argue that. Of course there are. I think the majority of people in Northern Ireland want to move on and realise the amazing potential of that country.

Look, I think, anyone who has lost a loved one in contentious circumstances, I entirely understand, and my heart goes out to them. [00:36:00] I just feel that if after 40 or 50 years you've been unable to get a criminal prosecution, which is what some of these people want, you're unlikely to get it, and it would be wiser and bear more fruit to focus on truth and reconciliation rather than consistently trying to prosecute someone for something that happened 40 or 50 years ago in a conflict that frankly no one really remembers.

It inevitably brings in lopsided prosecutions, right? 'Cause a military's gonna keep loads of records and a terrorist organisation is not. And then when you combine that with people being encouraged to leave these terrorist organisations and get involved in politics, which is good, right, but they will then, you know, if there aren't safeguards in place, they will then start to use the levers of the state to then rewrite the course of that history, particularly if they lost, which the Republican movement did in Northern Ireland.

We've just got to stop being naive to this, I think, and be realistic with people. I really feel for the families who don't have answers. It's incredibly [00:37:00] painful. I've spent so much time with them. But I also feel people aren't really honest with them, and that's, my bugbear really, and that's from their legal teams through to the politicians in Northern Ireland who will say anything for just a few more votes on legacy and, are unaware of the damage they do.

I don't think soldiers are above the law or anything like that. I just think that, we have a duty to prevent their abuse through the levers of government, which is what has been happening for, the last few years in Northern Ireland. And, you know, this government has chosen a different path. They want to see this process continue, but, you know, if it hasn't worked for the last 40 years, I don't think it's going to work now.

So yeah, it makes me sad. It's the only thing that would make me go back really is that, u- unfortunately, I'm, I'm a believer, right? I'm a patriot. I believe in veterans' rights. I believe in my country. But I mean, like, life is like 10 times better now. I see my family. I feel like a normal human being again.

You know, it's a deeply unattractive prospect going back into politics, but [00:38:00] as you can see, I'm a, believer, so we'll see.

Mark D'Arcy: Yeah, I was, going to ask you about that. You were part of that Conservative defeat, the biggest ever. you lost your seat in that election in '24. Would you ever come back as, an MP, as the Baron de Mercer of Moorview or something, if the offer came along and a chance to head up a office of Veterans' Affairs in a new government?

Johnny Mercer: I don't think so, no. It was a deeply painful process, but ultimately, you know, I do believe in the power of politics to do good. I think that's why a lot of good people remain in politics. Look, there's a lot of deeply unsuitable people involved in politics. There are some good ones as well, and they need better people to join.

Yeah, look, I was also a young man when I came into this. I, know I'm not particularly old now, right? But I was 35, and I was happy to go behind the bike sheds with anyone, right? But I'm, tired. [00:39:00] I want to look after myself for a bit. And other people, look, I'm not the only veteran in this country. I'm certainly not the only veteran in politics.

You look at how many people trade off their tenuous connections to the military. I mean, some of these guys can do a bit of work as far as I'm concerned and start standing up for these people. It's not all on me, so, you know, I want other people to take some of the strain.

Mark D'Arcy: Johnny Mercer, thanks very much indeed for joining Ruth and me on the pod today.

Johnny Mercer: Pleasure.

Outro: Parliament Matters is produced by the Hansard Society and supported by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. For more information, visit hansardsociety.org.uk/pm, or find us on social media @HansardSociety.